A common tactic you will see from anti-feminists is they will spam a list of quotes that are supposedly from prominent feminists. I originally addressed most of them in my lengthy response to Karen Straughan's NAFALT video.Whenever someone uses a quote from a feminist always remember to ask them to cite a source. Most of the time they won't be able to do so because they have just copied and pasted these quotes from Anti-Feminist lists.
There are four fundamental flaws in this argument.
#1. A lot of these quotes were taken out of context to change their meaning, some were completely fabricated, some were made by non-feminists, some were made by people who are not prominent feminists, etc...
#2. A person can respect and even agree with some work written by a person WITHOUT supporting every single thing they say or do.
#3. For the sake of argument, let us say that all of these quotes are accurate and every person on the list was a prominent feminist name. It is anecdotal evidence and does not prove that a majority of feminists share these views.
#4. They are almost always using these quotes in an attempt to paint MODERN (third-wave) feminists as extremists. However, the majority of people they quote are NOT third-wave feminists. Some of them are not even feminists at all.
Marilyn French
Jilly Cooper
Andrea Dworkin
Barbara Jordan
Linda Gordon
Judith Levine
Catherine MacKinnon
Harriet Harman
Brenda Hale
Sheila Jeffrys
Catherine Commins
Sharon Stone
Treena Shapiro (who?)
Gloria Steinem
Unnamed Suffragette
Jodie Foster
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Marilyn French
“He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love; he can rape women...he can sexually molest his daughters... The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above." - Marilyn French
Out of context: If you had bothered researching this quote you would know that anti-feminists had edited it. Here is the original quote.
"As long as some men use physical force to subjugate females, all men need not. The knowledge that some men do suffices to threaten all women. Beyond that, it is not necessary to beat up a woman to beat her down. A man can simply refuse to hire women in well-paid jobs, extract as much or more work from women than men but pay them less, or treat women disrespectfully at work or at home. He can fail to support a child he has engendered, demand the woman he lives with wait on him like a servant. He can beat or kill the woman he claims to love, he can rape women, whether mate, acquaintance, or stranger; he can rape or sexually molest his daughters, nieces, stepchildren, or the children of a woman he claims to love. The vast majority of men in the world do one or more of the above"
Notice how they only included rape, murder and molestation while leaving out the lesser issues such as refusing to hire women, pay women less, treat women disrespectually in some way, expect a woman to wait on him like a servant, etc... Sure, it has quite the dramatic effect when you claim someone said that most men have raped, murdered or molested but it isn't intellectually honest when the person didn't actually SAY that.
It is amazing how taking out a few words here and there can completely change the context of something, wouldn't you say? See, this is the type of dishonestly I see from anti-feminists that I debate every day. They take our comments out of context or edit them to give them a completely different meaning.
“All men are rapists and that’s all they are.” — Marilyn FrenchOut of context: This quote was taken from a FICTIONAL novel called The Women's Room She has PUBLICLY pointed out that she doesn't share those views.
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2009/may/05/obituary-marilyn-french
“My feelings about men are the result of my experience. I have little sympathy for them. Like a Jew just released from Dachau, I watch the handsome young Nazi soldier fall writhing to the ground with a bullet in his stomach and I look briefly and walk on. I don’t even need to shrug. I simply don’t care. What he was, as a person, I mean, what his shames and yearnings were, simply don’t matter.” — Marilyn FrenchOut of context: Also taken from her fictional novel.
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Jilly Cooper
"The male is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness…can be trained to do most things." — Jilly Cooper, SCUM (Society For Cutting Up Men)"
Out of context and not a Feminist: First of all, there is ZERO evidence that SCUM was actually a real organization so how you managed to connect Jilly Cooper to a non-existent group is quite the mystery. I have researched this one extensively and found no connection outside of MRA sites and they never have a source for this claim. Also, Jilly Cooper publicly stated in an interview that she is not even a feminist.
Source: http://www.theguardian.com/books/2007/apr/26/fiction.shopping
The quote in question is from a freaking HUMOR book (Men and Super Men) and also takes shots at the women's movement. Also, the quote was taken completely out of context. Here is the FULL quote:
"The male—I have found—is a domestic animal which, if treated with firmness and kindness (Note: they left out the previous two words), can be trained to do most things. It is important to have one in your life to turn on your bath water, do up your zips, carry your suitcases, work out tips, tell silly jokes to, use a threat when you are having trouble with tradesmen and unwelcome suitors and ultimately to arrange your funeral. Men, according to legend, want only one thing, are deceivers ever, are not interested in gossip, like a cosy armful, need two eggs, and seldom wash behind their ears. They come in all shakes and sizes except for their organs, which according to all of the sex books, are exactly the same size when erect and similarly capable of giving pleasure. At present men are under fire from the Women's Lib movement, which has been described as a storm in a B-Cup, and the biggest bore of the century, one rivalled by the Common Market. One cannot dismiss something, however, because it is boring. Every day through my letter box thunders Women's Lib propaganda: The Feminine Mystique, Women on Women, Women under Women, and so on. Men in fact have come in for such a pasting that when I started to write this book, I intended it to be in their defence--my charger and my white plume at the ready."In the full quote you can clearly see that is meant to be humor and also makes jokes about the women's movement.
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Andrea Dworkin
“I want to see a man beaten to a bloody pulp with a high-heel shoved in his mouth, like an apple in the mouth of a pig.” — Andrea DworkinOut of context: This was actually taken from one of her FICTIONAL novels and it was said by a character who was sexually molested as a child. If we are going to hold authors responsible for everything their characters say in a book, then someone should probably go arrest Stephen King. lol
"Heterosexual intercourse is the pure, formalized expression of contempt for women’s bodies.” — Andrea Dworkin
"All sex is rape." - Andrea DworkinStrawman/Misinterpreted: These are two variations of the same quote and neither of them represented her actual view. The second one is also frequently attributed to Catherine MacKinnon. I will address that later.
The real quote from her book is, "Intercourse appears to be the expression of that contempt in pure forum, in the form of a sexed hierarcy."
She clarified her view in an interview when asked about the quote.
Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?
Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled. The whole issue of intercourse as this culture's penultimate expression of male dominance became more and more interesting to me. In Intercourse I decided to approach the subject as a social practice, material reality. This may be my history, but I think the social explanation of the "all sex is rape" slander is different and probably simple. Most men and a good number of women experience sexual pleasure in inequality. Since the paradigm for sex has been one of conquest, possession, and violation, I think many men believe they need an unfair advantage, which at its extreme would be called rape. I don't think they need it. I think both intercourse and sexual pleasure can and will survive equality.
It's important to say, too, that the pornographers, especially Playboy, have published the "all sex is rape" slander repeatedly over the years, and it's been taken up by others like Time who, when challenged, cannot cite a source in my work.
Source: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html
I would also recommend reading the chapter of the book in question (Intercourse), which can be found here:
Source: http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/IntercourseI.html
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Barbara Jordan
"I believe that women have a capacity for understanding and compassion which a man structurally does not have, does not have it because he cannot have it. He's just incapable of it."
Not a Feminist: Jordan was a civil rights leader, NOT a feminist. She never called herself a feminist, had no feminist works to her credit, never made any speeches in support of Feminism, and never actively supported Feminism as she did with the civil rights movement. Did she support some feminist issues? Yes. However, sharing some views with a group does not mean you are actually part of it and you certainly can't claim she was a prominent Feminist. lol I'm sure there are some MRAs who support abortion rights but does that mean they are Feminists? I share the Bible's view about helping the poor so does that mean I am a Christian?
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Linda Gordon
“The nuclear family must be destroyed... Whatever it’s ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.”
Again, I am going to put this into it's proper context so we will start by posting the entire quote.
"The nuclear family must be destroyed, and people must find better ways of living together.... Whatever its ultimate meaning, the break-up of families now is an objectively revolutionary process.... No woman should have to deny herself any opportunities because of her special responsibilities to her children... Families will be finally destroyed only when a revolutionary social and economic organization permits people's needs for love and security to be met in ways that do not impose divisions of labor, or any external roles, at all."Out of context: I happen to agree with her because I actually understand what she is referring to here. If you bothered to read her work you would know that she is talking about the traditional idea of a nuclear family and the gender roles that come with it. Meaning the dad goes to work and the mom stays home and raises the children. This is why she mentioned the part about how women should not have to give up their dreams and be forced to stay home and raise the kids. Raising kids should be done by BOTH parents, not just one. The workload should be shared evenly. She is absolutely right about that.
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Judith Levine
“Men's sexuality is mean and violent.”
Falsely Attributed: She didn't actually say that and it is from her book, "My Enemy, My Love." She was quoting someone else's work. Here is the full context:
"In the spring of 1987, a friend gave me six photocopied, stapled-together pages from a group calling itself A Southern Women’s Writing Collective: Women Against Sex (WAS). It was a manifesto, written in hermetic language and tortuous syntax, as if transcribed from a middle-of-the-night brawl between pixilated philosophy students. But its tone was ferocious, and the world it depicted was one of terror and rage, male conquest and female surrender. In WAS’s world, men's sexuality is mean and violent, and men so powerful that they can "reach within women to fuck/construct us from the inside out." Satan-like, men possess women, making their wicked fantasies and desires women’s own. A woman who has sex with a man, therefore, does so against her will, even if she does not feel forced."Seriously, just some basic research would prevent Anti-Feminists from looking so foolish.
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Catherine MacKinnon
"In a patriarchal society all heterosexual intercourse is rape because women, as a group, are not strong enough to give meaningful consent."Fabricated/Misattributed: This is yet another variation of the "all sex is rape" quote that has been repeatedly attributed to both MacKinnon and her friend, Andrea Dworkin. However, not only can you not find these types of quotes in their work, both have publicly said that they don't share this belief.
MacKinnon has publicly stated that she never said that and there is no actual source from any of her work or interviews. The reality is that this was quoted by conservative writer, Cal Thomas, who copied it from an anti-feminist book called Professing Feminism, which he seemed to believe was written by MacKinnon herself. Also, the quote itself is actually just the author's interpretation of MacKinnon's work.
"Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated."
Would you like to see the context now?
"In what I've said so far, I've had in mind an entire range of rape experiences. Politically, I call it rape whenever a woman has sex and feels violated. You might think that's too broad. I'm not talking about sending all of you men to jail for that. I'm talking about attempting to change the nature of the relations between women and men by having women ask ourselves, "Did I feel violated?" To me, part of the culture of sexual inequality that makes women not report rape is that the definition of rape is not based on our sense of our violation."
Notice the fourth sentence in the paragraph. Continue reading. Any questions?
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Harriet Harman
It cannot be assumed that men are bound to be an asset to family life, or that the presence of fathers in families is necessarily a means to social harmony and cohesion
Misrepresented: MRAs always neglect to mention that Harman also states that there is no ideal type of household to bring up children. They also claim that Harman's statement disregards the father's humanity. No, it does not in the context that was used. Saying that we can't automatically assume a father usefulness in the child's upbringing is not the same as disregarding his humanity. Saying that we shouldn't automatically assume something is not the same as arguing for that point. Meaning that she is not arguing that fathers are useless. This is intellectual dishonsty, or perhaps just intellectual laziness, at it's finest.
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Brenda Hale
"Judges must apply lenient sentencing to female criminals. It is now well-recognized that a misplaced conception of equality has resulted in some very unequal treatment for women and girls."The first time I heard this one was in Karen Straughan's NAFALT video. This one is a legitimate quote. Hale argued that female criminal offenders should generally recieve lesser sentences than males, due to mitigating factors such as mental health issues, educational difficulties and the fact that significantly less women commit crime than men. This one can certainly be debated and I am not even sure where I fall on issue. I do understand Hale's point but I think it is questionable. Straughan would have been fine if she had left it at that but then she attempts to cherry-pick a few issues to suggest that women do not suffer any inequalities. What people like Straughan do not seem to comprehend is that showing a few examples isn't the same as examining ALL of the issues as a whole. It would be like a white person finding a few examples of white people having a problem that blacks don't deal with and then trying to suggest that whites face more inequalities than blacks.
I should also point out that she is not what most would call a prominent feminist. She has written a text book called "Family, Law and Societey" that discussed legal cases but it was certainly not a feminist book. Other than her order regarding female criminals, I see no feminist work of any kind.
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Sheila Jeffrys
“When a woman reaches orgasm with a man she is only collaborating with the patriarchal system, eroticizing her own oppression.”Unverified/Fabricated: There doesn't appear to be any original source for this quote. If the Anti-feminist is using her to try to make a statement about modern feminists, you should also point out that Jeffrys is a second-wave TERF so she certainly doesn't represent feminism today.
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Catherine Commins
“Men who are unjustly accused of rape can sometime gain from the experience.”Out of context/Misrepresented: The first problem is that she never said those words. It was a summary of her words written by someone at Time. This is what she actually said:
“They have a lot of pain, but it is not a pain that I would necessarily have spared them. I think it ideally initiates a process of self-exploration. ‘How do I see women?’ ‘If I didn’t violate her, could I have?’ ‘Do I have the potential to do to her what they say I did?’ Those are good questions.”
The second problem is that we don't know if she is a feminist. Anti-Feminists seem to want to label pretty much any woman who talks about gender issues as a feminist. It reminds me of that Rebecca West quote:
I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is: I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat.The final problem is that she has no feminist work to her credit and has never publicly spoke out on behalf of feminist so she certainly isn't some prominent face of feminism. Considring that she is just some Dean at university and not a public figure, I am guessing most people would have never heard of her before this quote. This would be the equivalent of saying that some random guy on YouTube is a face of Anti-Feminism.
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Sharon Stone
“The more famous and powerful I get the more power I have to hurt men.”Unverified/Fabricated: Not only does there appear to be no original source for this quote, I am not sure how Sharon Stone qualifies as a prominent Feminist or even a Feminist. I can find nothing about her even supporting Feminism.
Again, this is a situation where someone may (no evidence she said it) have said something negative pertaining to men so she is automatically labeled a feminist.
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Treena Shapiro (who?)
"I do want to be able to explain to a 9-year-old boy in terms he will understand why I think it’s OK for girls to wear shirts that revel in their superiority over boys."Random Internet User:
I had never heard of this person so I did some research and the only thing I could find was some random Tumblr user with the same name who appears to be a Feminist. If they are using this on a list of prominent feminists, be sure to point out that she is just some random person. If we are going to use quotes from just anyone on the internet, then that is definitely an argument the anti-feminist side can't win. lol For every Treena Shapiro they give us, I can point to hundreds of posts by anti-feminists that are much worse.
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Gloria Steinem
"Housewives are dependent creatures who are still children - parasites."Legit Quote: Yes, she said it. I think she actually has a point to some extent but I wouldn't have chosen those exact words. The first part of her statement is undeniably true. Are housewives not financially dependent upon on their husband? I think in most cases, the answer is yes. The comment about them being children and parasites is certainly questionable but the first part is accurate. I would also add that women in these situations being financially dependent is actually bad for both genders but I will save that argument for an upcoming post I will be writing later this month.
You should also point out that while Steinem is a Feminist icon, she also happens to be a second-wave Feminist. If they are trying to paint modern feminists in a certain way then be sure to make that point.
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Unnamed Suffragette (lol)
"Women, though saved through the noble sacrifice of men, were in the equally hard situation of having to see the ship go down”Unverified: This "quote" comes from a newspaper article (New York Times, April 21st, 1912) that was written to attack the Suffragettes. It was titled, "Suffragettes Deny Chivalry on Titanic" and the quote in question was by an unnamed suffragette so we don't even know if the person was real. Never post quotes from people if you cannot identify who they are in the first place.
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Jodi Foster
"Ninety-five percent of women's experiences are about being a victim. Or about being an underdog, or having to survive... women didn't go to Vietnam and blow things up. They are not Rambo."Legit Quote: While she did actually say this during an interview, she is certainly not a prominent feminist and has no feminist work to her credit. I will also say that I really fail to see what is so awful about the quote in question, especially the first part of it.
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